After having the Bible study last week, which surprisingly went for about an hour and a half, the main thing we talked about was how to communicate the Gospel with unchurched friends. The biggest barrier to that message, we felt, was apathy, and a denial of the existence of sin. It's hard to get people worked up for salvation from something they don't think exists, or is not important.
Why is it that, when asked to put the teachings of Christianity succinctly, people will say, "Be a good person and you get to go to Heaven"? Why isn't the first thing people say, "Christians believe Jesus was the Son of God and that he died sacrificially so believers in him get to go to Heaven"? Last week a woman asked me if Lutherans thought that Jews would go to Hell and seemed genuinely surprised when I (uncomfortably) said yes. I'm not mad at the woman- it was an honest and important question- but I am a little frustrated in myself and other Christians if the most basic parts of Christianity aren't communicated well.
This also implies that perhaps I don't know much about other world religions. Is the teaching of Islam really obedience to Five Pillars (Charity, going to Mecca on a pilgrimage, obedience to moral teachings, believing that there is one God and Mohammed is His Prophet, and one more)? Has my public education failed me?
Anyway, on to John 16, which begins with some leftovers from last week about persecution. Whoever divided up John screwed up that part, so I'll begin at the fifth verse:
The Work of the Holy Spirit
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."
So it appears the world is guilty on three charges: sin, righteousness, and judgment. Sin is 'missing the mark' of perfection that God has for us. The world stands guilty of sin because 'men do not believe in [Jesus]', which I take to mean that they cannot even see the target to shoot straight at it. The world stands guilty of not being righteous as well. This is proven by Jesus going to the Father; Jesus is the only righteous person, so his absence from the world highlights the absence of righteousness in the world. How 'not being righteous' is different from 'being sinful' is a little unclear. Does this just mean that we haven't done things that are good, in addition to doing things that are bad?
In any event, Jesus concludes with passing judgment on the world. It's a bit like a courtroom trial: The World has done wrong, it has not done right, and it is condemned as a result of this. The sentence, according to Paul, is physical (and spiritual) death. Good thing Jesus goes on:
The Disciples' Grief Will Turn to Joy
17Some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by saying, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,' and 'Because I am going to the Father'?" 18They kept asking, "What does he mean by 'a little while'? We don't understand what he is saying."19Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, "Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me'? 20I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. 22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."
29Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."
31"You believe at last!"[b] Jesus answered. 32"But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
33"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
Just when this condemnation stuff was getting everyone a little down, Jesus comes back by saying that he has overcome the world. It will look like Jesus has lost-- didn't it look like that on Good Friday and Saturday and the first part of Easter Sunday?-- but this grief will turn to joy. The disciples finally seem to get it: Jesus is the Son of God, he will go away (die), but he will come back (the Resurrection), and this will somehow connect God to people once again. Attaboy, disciples.One nitpick: the disciples say, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech." I think that this is one of the more difficult sections to understand, at least compared to other sections of John, where Jesus says stuff like, "Whoever believes in me will never die" or when he physically hands some bread to his betrayer, or when he predicts his death and then says the Son of God must be 'lifted up'. Use any and all to get the message across.
I know that my Redeemer lives. What comfort this sweet sentence gives.
9 comments:
Why does God condemn good non-believers?
A good 'non-believer' is a bit of a contradiction in terms. Can a 'non-believer' truly BE good? There's a reason why the First Commandment is "Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods".
St. Paul quotes Psalm 53 when he says, "Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."
James also speaks to the same idea in Chapter 2, verse 10: "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."
The point is clear: in the history of the entire world, there has only been one man who has been completely righteous and sinless- Jesus Christ.
Therefore, all men, non-believers and believers alike, stand condemned before God.
Jordan's question points to a common criticism of Christianity that has troubled many for some time, namely that it does not account for faithless do-gooders who could not reasonably be held responsible for their lack of faith. What I have in mind here is an individual from a secluded society who, for one reason or another, God has not chosen to be lucky enough to have heard of His existence. Why would God create men who have absolutely no chance of being saved?
The reason we don't punish the insane or mentally handicapped is because they lack the capacity for moral understanding; it doesn't make sense to punish individuals if they have absolutely no idea what they are being punished for, i.e., if they cannot distinguish between right and wrong. It just seems plainly evil to eternally damn a person for not doing what God did not give him a chance to do. This is why an adequate concept of God - omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent - seems completely inconsistent with the Christian dogma on eternal damnation.
Salvation should not be a question of luck.
Also, I am sure the response to this will be: Well, hey, you should be thankful God saves ANYONE. After all, we all deserve eternal damnation since we are all sinners and (continue standard Christian response). But, of course, this only begs the question. Given that we are all sinners and all deserve eternal damnation, again, why would God be so selective in who He decides even has the chance of being saved; why would He prevent so many from feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit or hearing of Jesus' teachings, and thus, giving them absolutely no chance for salvation?
First, a bit on whether you can even pass judgment on those who don't know the Law. Read John 15, or just my writeup of it a post down, where Jesus says that because he has come into the world, people have no excuse for their sin. On Judgment Day, you don't get to say you didn't know the rules: God told them to your father and mother once, he wrote them down in stone so you wouldn't forget, he wrote them down on your heart, too. He even sent his Son to straighten you out on understanding them.
Paul responds with this point: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1)
I don't know if you accept that argument or not.
Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot you were sick the day they taught law at law school!
Also: be lucky I just don't say, "God moves in mysterious ways" or "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will harden who I will harden" or "Hath not the potter power over the clay?" I know you don't buy that argument.
Further: you seem to be of the opinion that God's mercy (His not doing bad things to people who deserve them) is in conflict with his judgment (His promise to make sure people are judged on what they do).
Let's step back to the courtroom metaphor for just a second. It is possible to be Judged as guilty of a crime, but also be shown mercy, isn't it? God's judgment is correct: I'm still guilty. Check out what the court reporter wrote: guilty. I don't see the contradiction, there, between judgment and mercy.
But apparently, you do. So.
Maybe my feeble attempts to explain predestination will help on this subject. You will especially like it, because it is logically impossible, Andrew.
1. Salvation is completely the work of God. You play NO ROLE in your salvation (or conversion). God chooses you.
2. Damnation is completely the fault of Man.
Even if God has complete control over who he saves, he is NOT at fault for those he doesn't. Again, a hard teaching to understand. You could try here:
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuItem_itemID=5940&cuTopic_topicID=10
You are on a sinking ship and you are desperately searching for the only remaining life raft. You come to a passage where you can go one of two directions but time dictates that you cannot go both for the ship will sink before you can try again. On the left there is a man and he says to you "Come with me and I will lead you to the only life raft left and you will be saved." But on the Right there is a man who says to you "Come with me I will lead you to the only life raft left and you will be saved." Which direction will you go?
What if the Koran is actually the words of god and Chrisianity is wrong? Should all faithful christians be tormented in hell for all eternity?
I find your cultural relativism to be completely insane. Christians make metaphysical claims. Muslims make metaphysical claims. They cannot both be right. Muslims have little problem claiming that I will go to Hell. I generally have no problem claiming that Muslims will. That's the nature of the game, man. You don't get to play nice and not hurt people's feelings, Jordan: we're talking about eternal salvation here.
You seem to be arguing that Islam is indistinguishable from Christianity, or that they both look equally valid from the outside. Therefore, if there is no way to distinguish between who is telling the truth and who is lying until it's too late, that was a pretty unfair game to play.
But there is a way to tell who's telling the truth, Jordan. Listen to your conscience, listen to the Holy Spirit, listen to me, and decide if what I'm saying makes sense. I think your humble nature has made you afraid to step on anyone's toes.
Please keep in mind that I am half playing the devils advocate here.
In your courtroom analogy there seem to be two crimes. 1) Original Sin and 2) Lack of faith in Jesus Christ. You might even be able to argue that it is the latter whose punishment is death and not the former.
Its not cultural relativism and its not about people feelings. What it is about is accepting that I do not know the answer and, as I am sure you are aware, thats why they call it faith.
My conscience? Tells me that claiming to know something I dont is a lie and wrong. The Holy Spirit: I never recognized the Holy Spirit. You? Telling me that even those who live up to the highest of ideals but lack faith in Jesus Christ will be tormented in Hell forever, that doesnt make sense to me. It could be true, I just dont know.
To sum up the discussion so far, Jordan has asked, “Why does God condemn good non-believers?” By this, I take it that Jordan means that there exist persons who live moral lives by the generally accepted moral standards and even by many Christian standards as well. To this, David has essentially responded that there is no such thing as a good non-believer, because good, by Christian standards entails a belief that Jesus Christ is the savior. This is, of course, begging the question. We are all aware that there are no non-believers who are good in the sense David speaks of, for this was presupposed in God’s condemning them all to Hell. The question Jordan has asked is, “Does God justifiably condemn non-believers to be eternally damned?”
I then proposed the question to David, what of ignorant non-believers? How can God justifiably condemn those whom He has decided not to share his presence with? To this, David responded (fallaciously) that God wrote the rules down in stone and he wrote them on my heart. He then claims that everyone knows the power and nature of God. So, again, the persons I claim to exist, in fact, do not. At this point, he has answered my question. But, David, I don’t buy the argument.
Of course, it seems quite odd that we are even arguing about this at all. After all, I believe the Christian perspective is that they are justified in their beliefs not by reason, but by faith. Indeed, David has even admitted accepted a self-contradiction, which, as a simple fact in first-order logic, one can prove anything from.
Predestination amounts to determinism, which, as you’ve stated yourself, David, was rendered false by quantum mechanics. Which will you abandon sir? Your God or your Science ???
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
To be fair to Jordan, his view is not Cultural Relativism. Cultural Relativism is the view that a view is true if and only if it conforms to the views accepted in one’s culture. In other words, all views are true. Jordan’s question was, “What if Christianity were false and Islam were true?” not “What if both Christianity and Islam are both true?” It is also a hypothetical. If you want a true Cultural Relativist(re:salvation), talk to Debbie & Steve.
Also, I appreciate your diligence buddy. I know it's hard being a Christian on a liberal, atheist campus. Keep it up. I AM PROUD OF YOU!!
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